Indian Run Christian Church
  • About Us
    • WHAT WE BELIEVE
    • OUR STAFF
    • SERVICE TIMES
    • HISTORY
    • Contact
  • YOUTH
    • RESET YOUTH GROUP (IRCC YOUTH)
  • Community
  • WOMEN'S MINISTRY
    • Tulip Tea Registration
  • SUPPORTED MISSIONS
  • Ministry Videos
    • Terry's Videos >
      • Finding Joy
      • Good Advice for Today
      • Depressing Times
      • What Sort Of People Ought We To Be
      • Advancing in Times Of Trouble
      • Lonely

​

Goodbye SEB

12/6/2022

3 Comments

 
​Some years ago I carried on an extensive two year conversation/debate with a group of atheists. It was a valuable learning experience for me – I can only hope for them as well. The core subject of the discussion was why they considered Christianity intrinsically ‘hateful’. The discussion ranged considerably in all kinds of directions. It got started because of comments made by an old friend of mine – once a fellow minister – since turned atheist. When I questioned him about his comments, he felt the discussion would be more profitable if held with the online atheist group to which he belonged. The discussion was hosted by an atheist blogger whose online title was SEB (Stupid Evil B******) While it lasted, this conversation became the single most popular and enormous blog SEB had ever had. I often thought he should have paid me for upping his online stats. Ah well. The conversation ended when enough of the atheists resented its continuation sufficiently that I called a halt. I tell you all that so I can tell you this. Every once in a great while I have checked in on the SEB blog just to see what was going on there. I will say, sadly, that I never saw any great change. But, I just recently checked in and saw that SEB (his real name was Les Jenkins) passed away this last March. In one of his last posts he observed that he was approaching the age at which his father had died of pancreatic cancer – a specific possibility he felt he didn’t have to worry over since his doctor kept on top of that. He did worry that he was obese, diabetic and physically inactive. He hated exercise and dieting, feeling that in a just world, healthy food would taste better than the unhealthy kind and exercise would show positive results in just a couple of days. His doctor told him that his happiness would increase if he just stuck with things long enough for the benefits to accrue. He decided that, while he did not wish to die young, he was ‘happy’ eating and sitting and could not justify the ‘misery’ of better eating and regular exercise. After all, ‘happy’ is the goal of life, right? Then came a period of extreme weariness and some abdominal pain. Tests, procedures, stage 4 pancreatic cancer, spread to the liver; (the very thing he thought he wouldn’t have to worry about) chemo, blood thinners, internal bleeding, hospice, a post by a relative announcing the final arrangements. In recent years I said goodbye, for this time, to my parents with gut wrenching grief. There was none of that for SEB. Just a flat blanket of sadness. I never met the man in person. We agreed about almost nothing. I deeply resented his brand of gleeful ‘thumb in the eye’ blasphemy. But I know that God loved him and I know from having read and been a participant in his blog that he had plenty of opportunities to come to know God – all squandered in unrelenting and largely unreasoning malice toward the very concept of the divine. But this is the nature of free will and is encompassed in God’s love – He will not force us to come to Him. I wish SEB’s widow and children well. In all cases, I trust the love, mercy and justice of God implicitly. As to that: SEB’s sins are not worse than or even particularly different from mine. If our eternal destinations differ (left with God) it is only a matter of accepting an invitation. I can only encourage everyone to accept that invitation while you can. 
3 Comments
Pearl Southwell
12/10/2022 04:41:17 pm

Unfortunately, there are many SEBs in the world, living a miserable existence. Only the Love of our Lord can cut through their stony hearts - we must pray for them all. Thanks for the reminder.

Reply
George Wiman link
12/11/2022 03:28:31 pm

If you're going to use my friend Les' memory for an altar call, a few corrections are in order.

I wish you could have known him, outside the context of a discussion at odds with your worldview. He was endlessly curious, valued truth and humanity, and was known and loved by his huge circle of friends. I was lucky enough to get to know him pretty well.

Your comment about money from that one post is distasteful. First of all your contribution was no greater than that of the other commenters who gave their time and work. Second, you may not be aware that Les was an internet pioneer; SEB was one of the early big blogs, with thousands of regular visitors. And third, this was before click-monetization. It was a labor of love, and he didn't usually break even.

What you see as lack of respect for your faith is a small reflection of the vile characterization of atheists by evangelicals over the years.

As for your judgmental take on his dietary and exercise habits, do your overweight parishioners know you feel this way about them? Weight loss is one of the most complex problems in medicine, and you can hardly blame someone for finally saying "All right, just forget it..."

It should also be noted that he is collateral damage to COVID - his diagnostic appointments kept getting pushed back because of the crisis. By the time they got it all sorted out and began treatment, it was far too late. He faced his own death with courage and humour.

Yes, we are sad when a good friend dies. We don't believe in an afterlife, which makes the time we have in the here and now, all the more precious and beautiful.

"Accepting an invitation?" From who? Once again, Atheists. Don't. Believe. God. Exists. What feels like redeeming faith to you looks like wishful thinking to us. We cannot simply make ourselves believe in something, to get a personal reward.

Sadly, in the 13 years since that discussion took place, American evangelical Christianity has gone even FARTHER down the road of hyper-nationalism and bigotry. Their standard-bearers wave the bible and hug the flag, but have no personal character. To paraphrase John Pavlovitz, they have embraced Fox News Christianity but have no use for Jesus.

Reply
Terry Bailey
12/13/2022 10:40:18 am

Hey George,
Always good to hear from you and thank you for your response. Let me offer my thoughts on the matters you broached.
I do not at all dispute that Les was a good human being or that he had a productive curiosity or even a sense of wonder. My comment about his might having paid me was intended to be humorous but I can see how you found it distasteful so I apologize for that. I did not intend to demean anyone else’s contributions to the thread or to diminish Les’ accomplishments in the blogosphere.
But there is absolutely no point speaking of ‘what I saw as a lack of respect for my faith’. It is not a matter of perception. Les did not respect Christianity. He thought ‘my faith’ deserved all the disrespect he tossed at it and more.
That said – let me be quick to point out that the behavior of Christians is often subject to legitimate criticism and I have no bones to pick with Les or anyone else about that – so long as they are honest. Nor have I any objections to honest disagreement and discussion about the foundations or depth of Christian thought and I have no expectation that everyone is going to become believers on the basis of such conversations. In all of this I have no criticism of Les.
So, what am I bothered about? Well, take Les’ final anti-Christian post as an example. He built it around the sad instance of a mother who murdered her children. Just to start out – I did not catch a lot of Les’s ‘love for humanity’ in terms of sympathy and understanding for those poor sufferers. But leave that aside for a moment. He cited a portion of the story of King David as the sole basis for Christian thought on the subject of the ‘age of accountability.’
In terms of my earlier assertion vis a vis criticizing believers for their behavior, Les rightly pointed out David’s moral failings – which were EXTREME. Indeed, part of the point of the Biblical record is to examine David’s horrible failings of which, I, personally, am not sure the Bathsheba incident is even the worst. So, no beef with Les for that. But, to cast it as the sole basis of Christian thought on the age of accountability is bogus – which of course, you know.
With this bogus point, Les had two objectives.
1. To demonstrate the alleged flimsiness of Christian thought.
2. To be able to say he was ‘surprised’ that more Christians don’t murder their children, commit suicide, etc. the quicker to get to heaven after all.
Really? I doubt Les was actually surprised. Certainly almost no Christians would be. The Bible speaks clearly to purpose, joy, and worthwhile qualities in our present lives. But hey, hostile screeds are better facilitated by one dimensional characterizations than by actual understanding. To this I object.
I object to it when Christians do it too. When it has been shown to me that I have done it I repent in sackcloth and ashes. Criticism of SEB not withdrawn.
You say that what I saw on Les’ blog was only a small reflection of the vile characterization of atheists by evangelicals over the years. I will say first that my own experience does not bear that out. But even if I’m missing something, that’s a lousy excuse. It’s no good saying that the problem with Christians is that they are mean to those who disagree with their worldview and then proceeding to behave in exactly the same way.
You may have some point in criticizing my ‘judgmental take’ on Les’ dietary and exercise habits. I struggled with whether or not to include that material. I was trying to show something of Les’ own struggle with the questions of the purpose and joys of life in the face of mortality. I passed on only what Les said about himself. If it came across as me calling him a ‘lazy fatty’, I am sorry. That was not my intent. I do not care in any cosmetic sense about people’s weight and I do sympathize with people’s struggles in that department.
My point was about harmonizing all priorities. Since, you ask the question in terms of how I feel about my congregation – when any of my parishioners relays to me an attitude of ‘aw – chuck it’ concerning weight loss, continuing with chemo-therapy, struggling through difficult personal relationship issues, etc. – I give them the same advice - make sure your affairs – physical and spiritual – are arranged accordingly. If I think they need to keep trying I tell them that too. It’s actually a conversation I have fairly frequently. So, do they know how I feel about them. I hope so.
Finally, To my point concerning accepting an invitation you replied –
‘From Who? Once again, Atheists. Don’t. Believe. God. Exists.”
Well, George -
Atheists. Sometimes. Change. Their. Minds.
Les did not. What I said was that he didn’t lack opportunities. I leave

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Author

    Pastor and Author Terry Bailey, Senior Pastor of Indian Run Christian Church

    Archives

    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    August 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019

    Categories

    All

    RSS Feed

I NEED PRAYER

Contact Us

Picture
  • About Us
    • WHAT WE BELIEVE
    • OUR STAFF
    • SERVICE TIMES
    • HISTORY
    • Contact
  • YOUTH
    • RESET YOUTH GROUP (IRCC YOUTH)
  • Community
  • WOMEN'S MINISTRY
    • Tulip Tea Registration
  • SUPPORTED MISSIONS
  • Ministry Videos
    • Terry's Videos >
      • Finding Joy
      • Good Advice for Today
      • Depressing Times
      • What Sort Of People Ought We To Be
      • Advancing in Times Of Trouble
      • Lonely